Ep. 1008: 2026 State of the Whitetail Union with Kip Adams

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

00:00:20
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, I’m joined by Kip Adams, the Chief Conservation Officer for the National Deer Association, and we are discussing the state of white tails in America in twenty twenty six. We’re to cover many of the most pressing and concerning issues facing deer, as well as deer harvest and population trends and much more. All Right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light. Today on the show, as I just mentioned, we are chatting with Kip Adams from the National Deer Association about all things white tails and the state of our favorite big game animal all across the country. When we’re walking through a bunch of different things that were covered in the twenty twenty six Deer Report that the National Deer Association just put out. This is a report that covers many different topics, many different issues, many different trends, and data related to deer and deer hunting across the country. So, as I mentioned at the top, we’re going to talk through some of the most important issues facing deer. Some of that’s policy issues, some of those are updates on disease and hunter you know, participation numbers. We talk through a lot of things related to the deer harvest trends across the America, how the age structure is changing, how bucks versus antler lists, deer harvest is changing. We talk through some position statements that the National Deer Association has recently released about technology with deer hunting, and much much more above and beyond that. So I’m going to let us get right to that interview because, as you can hear, I’m a little bit under the weather right now. So let’s get to my chat with Kip Adams from a little bit earlier when I was feeling a lot better. And this is a great conversation with Kip that I know you’re all going to enjoy. All right, joining me once again is Kip Adams.

00:02:16
Speaker 3: Welcome back, Kip, Hey, good to see you, Mark, Thanks for having.

00:02:19
Speaker 2: Me you too. I always enjoy our check ins, And I was thinking to myself this morning that we’ve done this almost every single year for at least a decade, if not more than that. And then I remember that last year we didn’t do it because I pulled in Nick and Matt instead. So glad to get you back on here for this one, for our annual check in all things kind of state of the white Tail and taking a look at your most recent dear report that you guys put together every year, which I always enjoy, so I want to jump right into it. There’s so much in here, There’s always a lot. I can’t imagine how much time it takes you and Matt whoever else on the team helps you compile all of this. But I’m curious if you had to pick the number one headline from the twenty twenty six Deer Report, the thing that stands out above everything else as most important in your eyes? What is that?

00:03:12
Speaker 3: Well, I think the thing is certainly from a hunter’s end anyway, what they would look at as being most important is is literally the age structure of the buck harvest. It is better than it has ever been in any of our lifetimes. It is more natural for deer herds than it’s ever been. The fact that today, you know, for all of the you know, the antler bucks that we shoot for all of those that are only one and a half, we shoot two that are at least three and a half. So it’s crazy how far we have come. It’s such a good natural aige structure. It’s so healthy for deer, and it is providing incredible opportunities for hunters, And it literally is the best age structure we’ve had in at least the last one hundred years.

00:03:55
Speaker 2: So I think your diehard deer hunters understand what that means and why that’s important. But I gather I would think maybe that there’s probably some newer folks out there who hear that and they don’t quite understand why that matters beyond maybe just Okay, I see more old bucks and that sounds cool, But why is that actually important? Can you give us the cliff notes real quick for those people on why that is actually a meaningful change not just for deer hunters, but also the population of deer in the wider landscape too. Maybe.

00:04:25
Speaker 3: Sure, deer are far more social than most people realize. They evolved under a very complex social order that works best when you have all age classes representative and that’s all ages of bucks and ohs, and historically, because of our over harvest of bucks, we skewed that to a very young age structure. So deer still you know, they lived, and you know they bred and they provided follows, but they wasn’t allowed to really be deer. So that deer heard works best when it has a full compliment of age classes, and that’s what we have today. It’s important from a hunter’s end because yeah, we’d like to see and you don’t have the chance to hunt older bucks. But even people who don’t hunt should like that because that means as managers we are doing a good job. If you look at unhunted deer population today, they have full complement of ages. If you look historically at age structures, they had a full compliment. Today’s deer managers have now returned existing deer hurts to that. So it’s a real success story from a deer management end, whether you hunt deer or not.

00:05:27
Speaker 2: So this is kind of an absurd question that I never would have thought we’d be asking, but I do remember a handful of years ago in this chat, you discussed how we were expecting that this decline of you know, yearlings being harvested, was going to kind of plateau, was going to settle in somewhere at this mark and kind of stay right around there at some kind of natural stasis. And it’s largely done that for the last number of years, and now we’ve actually seen it drop a decent little bit again to a new record. So this begs the question is there I guess let me take it by it begs the question is there ever a point where it would become too much, that it has declined too much, that we have gotten this so that there’s so few yearlings being harvested and so much of a focus on mature bucks that in some way it was negative. Is that a possibility or could could that? Is there no negative to be reached?

00:06:22
Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know what we’d have to watch for is if only if the total buck harvest also was coming down, if we were doing everything we could to protect that yearling buck age class to the detriment of harvesting enough bucks anyway, then there would be a threat of what you were saying. But we are having record high buck harvest. So what it is is hunters are passing those one and a half year old bucks and killing a larger number of those once you know, there are three four five years old. So as long as we maintain harvest you know where or at least harvest bucks the way we do now, there’s no threat of any bad issue relative to protecting some yearlings. Now. The only potential issue down the road is from a disease end. You know, if any deer are being saved, you know that that may be spreading disease to others, you know, And that’s a different conversation than just this. So there is the potential from that end, But for a large part with what you’re asking in today’s modern deer world and the way we hunt now, we’re not negatively impact anything by saving those yearlings because we’re harvesting an even greater number of them once they get older.

00:07:28
Speaker 2: So one thing when I look at the charts and the data for a lot of the states and how they report their age structure, there’s some states that it’s really really, really dramatic, and I wonder if that is skewing the numbers for some states where we’re not seeing that change as much. Do any do you see any discrepancies between like those very aggressive, you know, mature buck states versus some of these other states. They have a lot of hunters and a lot of participation, but they are not seeing that. Does that a concern you at all? Be is that something you’re that you’re seeing or do not see that as much as I’m thinking, maybe there is.

00:08:06
Speaker 3: No You’re right and there are. There are some states that have vastly different age structures. Part of that are actually more of that is a reflection of how they collect that data. And so states collect this age data differently. Some do it at you know, biological checkstations, Some do it where they have one hundred cent teeth in, some do it at deer processors or taxims. So there’s lots of different ways that agencies can estimate the age structure, you know, of the harvest. And a lot of hunters will say, well, how do they know they didn’t age my dear? Well, biologis don’t need to age every dear, They just need to get their hand on a sample of that harvest. So the way some states do that is they only collect it from say, DMAT clubs, or they may collect it from everybody. The ones that are only collecting it from, particularly Deer Management Assistance Program or DMAT clubs. Those clubs have a little more invested in getting bucks into older age classes anyway, so those states tend to see even advanced age structure over what’s average. So what I say is, even though that’s not an apples to apples comparison that specific state to your state of Michigan or that state to my state of Pennsylvania, we track this long term and have been doing this for twenty years, so states seem to collect that data the same way each year. So even every state is in an apples apples across time, it is very comparable because they’re still collecting it the same way. So that’s why I feel very comfortable saying, yes, this is the actual, you know, current state of where we are age structure wise. I can’t say that Mississippi does a better job than Michigan or or other states, but long term, when you’re looking at everything, where it’s very clear we have the best age structure on the buck side that we ever have.

00:09:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, the trend line, you know, that’s that’s probably the biggest thing, right watching.

00:09:52
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, that is exactly.

00:09:56
Speaker 2: So what about on the antler list side, the last I don’t know, three four four or five years. As we’ve discussed this, the analyst side of things has continued to rise as a possible area of concern. Where does that stand this year?

00:10:09
Speaker 3: Fortunately, this past the data that’s in this report, So the twenty six report actually shares data from the twenty four to twenty five deer season, the reason being the report is published in January, so the twenty five to twenty six season is still going, so it’s the harvest data from the most recent season that’s in the books. Fortunately, the analysts harvest increased during that which is very good, and it got back above the antler buck harvest for the first time in a few years. And this is so important because long term, some states can shoot more bucks than dose each year and be okay, that’s not the norm for most of white tail country. You have to harvest more analysts deer than handler bucks to keep a healthy deer herd. Our buck harvest are at historically high levels. We have only shot more than three million antler bucks three times since the turn of the century, So twenty four twenty five hundred season, it’s only had three times and they’ve all happened within the last five years. So what it is Mark that is an index to deer population size. So we are at historically high population levels in many states right now, and that comes from a function of shooting too many bucks and not enough analysts deer. You know, because we can shoot all the bucks, move on, that’s not controlling population growth. That’s why so many states have been at begging hunters please shoot more analysts deer because deer herds are just getting higher and higher and higher above where they should be. So the fact is this last season we actually the analyst harvest was higher than the buck harvest, very good, and it was higher than it’s five year average, very good. So hunters answered the call, and that’s that’s exactly what we need because we were going the wrong way with the declining analysts harvest to cross many states.

00:11:57
Speaker 2: I’m sure you have kind of off the record kind of personal conversations with a lot of folks across these different states and managing agencies and everything like that. Do you have a sense, just like a temperature check on how folks are feeling about this. I mean, this latest data is encouraging, but are the folks on the ground managing these deer populations are they feeling like, oh, Yeah, we’re good. Trends are looking great and we’re happy with the where things are going out. Or do you still sense that there’s some of that you know, five alarm fire going on that some of these states have expressed in recent years. Is that continuing?

00:12:34
Speaker 3: It is? And there’s a lot of state deer managers that were extremely happy to see the data. You know, we’re okay analyst harvest or above buck harvest again, but they’re certainly not confident that that is going to continue long term without repeated you know work on their part, and you know, and I get it. We can’t just ask hunters one time shoot more. Does you know it’s a thing that they need to feel. Hey, this isn’t my best interest if I do shoot more, because you’re you know, as hunter’s more. We don’t want to see fewer deer. How many times have you gone hunting? Are taking your kids hunting? And say, man, I hope we see fewer deer than we did yesterday. That doesn’t happen. We don’t say that, you know, and I get it as well, you know, like I want to see deer too, and I like to see a lot of deer, so I understand it. So it’s important for people like you and US and state deer managers to let folks know, Hey, I know you want to, but hey, here’s why we actually need to shoot more does. We’re still going to maintain a very healthy herd. But here’s why this is in the deer hurd’s best interest, in your future hunting’s best interests. You know, if we actually shoot more does, because it seems like the most larger thing. If we shoot more does, there’s fewer deer. I’m negatively impacting by future hunting. And there are absolutely places where that’s true, where deer herds are very low, but most of Waytail Country that that’s not the case. So and I’m not saying we need to shoot more does everywhere, but across much of white Tail country that is the case today.

00:14:04
Speaker 2: Okay, so give me the sixty second elevator, you know, pitch on why killing more antlerless deer is probably a good thing. For someone who’s listening, who who hasn’t heard this yet and is thinking of themselves the exact same thing that you just set a second ago, that doesn’t make sense, Convince them why this is actually the case.

00:14:23
Speaker 3: Deer herds across much of the country are above what the habitats can support with regard to providing maximum nutrition for deer. If we balance deer herds with habitat, that’s when deer herds are healthiest. The habitat is the healthiest. The habitat for all those other wildlife species is the healthiest. And it’s also very good hunting for us. So we need to shoot enough anlist deer to keep deer herds there. And the reality today is only about forty percent of all the hunters that go afield shoot a single deer in a year. Sixty percent of all hunters will not shoot a single deer this year, even though we hear you know, hey, multiple bag limits and all these opportunities, most hunters don’t shoot a single deer. That’s why we impress upon ours. Hey, here’s the need. We need you to shoot, you know, an antler, this deer this year. Keep deer herds healthy and habitats healthy.

00:15:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. In the report, it broke down the average age for antless harvest across the country, and it was pretty It was a lower number, you know, for fawns. The lower is like nineteen percent for fawns, nineteen percent for year and a half holes nineteen twenty something like that for two and a half and then I believe it’s forty two percent of the antlerless harvest was three and a half plus. And I’m curious if that is the ski, if that’s the distribution that we ideally want, is that a good distribution? Is that too much? Too little? What are your thoughts on how that actually kind of maps out currently?

00:15:48
Speaker 3: Is that is a really old age structure for dose, and what that means is in many places we are not applying very heavy harvest pressure to those deer herds, because if we were applying more harvest pressure, it would be a more balanced age structure from fawnds up through mature deer. So now we say it like in the buck side forty three percent we’re three and older, but that’s have antler bucks. There’s no fawns in that. So you say, well, if it’s forty three percent mature bucks and forty two percent mature dose, which you need to remember is the antalyst side includes fonds, that nineteen percent fawns. So if you just looked at adult dose, those that are one have and older, the complement that’s three and a half plus would be way over forty two percent. So that means that’s a very advanced age structure, much much older than the average buck that’s on the landscape. So is that good? From a dough in what we have shows that, Yeah, we have deer in all age classes, but we just have a lot of them way at the you know, the right end of that graph. If we harvested more and brought the average age structure a little younger, that would be more representative of a natural heard and that would be much healthier for those deer. And let us know, as a manager standpoint, Hey, we’re doing a better job. So, yes, we have those in all age classes, but they’re skewed to the old end. We need to reduce that age class a little bit for dose to make them even healthier.

00:17:16
Speaker 2: And is the is the suggested action that we actually start targeting younger deer on purpose younger dos on purpose, or is it suggested to action simply just just shoot more does in general? I don’t care what age class they are. If you have a shot, take the shot. Assuming you’re in one of these places that has a very abundant population.

00:17:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is an easy one. The answer is just shoot more does, and that would correct the age structure by itself, because dose don’t necessarily get larger, you know, as they get older. With bucks in general, we can use body characteristics testimony at age. We can’t with dose. I’ve seen two year old dos win big dough contests. I’ve seen five year old dos that we’re tiny in structing. So it’s kind of like humans are taller, some are shorter, some get big, some don’t. So with those just I tell people to shoot the biggest dough in the group because you’re guaranteed then that it’s at least most likely an adult, and then you get the most meat for the freezer. That deer might be two and a half, three and a half, four and a half, or five and a half years old. So yeah, no, not many things are easy in life. This is one that gets very easy. Don’t try to pick an old young or just shoot the biggest deer in the group and shoot more does and that’ll all take care of itself.

00:18:31
Speaker 2: There you go. So as far as the harvest reports that you guys have collected from all across the state, is there any other key finding or trend or data point that you found really surprising or particularly either exciting or concerning. Does any last thing really stand out to you want to mention?

00:18:50
Speaker 3: I think one thing and it ties right into what we just said. We found out that the average deer hunter hunts twelve days a year. And I know my wife laughs at that, which he sees that to think only twelve days, you know. So yeah, so the average deer hunter last year hunted twelve days for deer. I mean, they may hunt for turkeys and ducks on a for deer, but the average successful deer hunter last year required fifteen days to harvest a deer. So what that showing is, okay, the average person of twelve This isn’t from a lack of opportunity in most places. It’s not from a lack of access for most hunters, or a lack of deer, or even a lack of days you know when the season’s back. It’s selectivity. They are specifically choosing, like I’ll wait till later to shoot that dough or now I’m going to wait for a bigger bug. So I thought that was pretty market. It didn’t surprise me that the average hunter hundred twelve days. It did surprise me that the average day number of days you know to shoot a dear was fifteen. But I think that that plays in perfectly with what we’re talking about, you know, the need to harvest more analyst deer. You know, just people just aren’t pulling the trigger or releasing that arrow, you know, with a lot of the opportunities that they have earlier in the sixties.

00:20:18
Speaker 2: So another thing that I would assume is possibly impacting you know, harvest rates and actual numbers of deer getting killed is the actual number of hunters heading a field. And for you know, a decade or two now, we’ve been hearing about the threat of declining hunter numbers, the baby boomers aging out, all of that. You guys took a look at that at a deer hunting specific level this year. Did anything coming out of that work surprise you? Was there anything different than what the historical trends that we’ve seen from the US Fish and Wildlife surveys have told us.

00:20:53
Speaker 3: It was a little concern in that total of your hunter numbers have dropped. Again, we asked this question two with three years ago on one of our Dear reports, because we keep a close eye on this. Once we have numbers of total deer armors. But then also we’ve put it on deer hunters per square mile because that statistic mark, more than anything else, dictates how many deer die in any state, not when opening day is, whether it’s in the rut or not, or how long your archer season is. It’s the number of hunters on the ground that has more to do with total number of deer that die than any other. So we watched this really closely. So it’s a little concerning that that number has come down again over the last few years. So I certainly don’t like that. So not only from a total hunter number standpoint, because hunters are ambassadors, you know, for hunting. They pay the bills for hunting, so fewer hunters is not good. But then also then that negatively impacts other conservation funding, and you know, it negatively impacts the number of deer they get shot, the number of pounds of venison that get donated to food banks. You know that all is tied in together. So it is a little concern in that, you know, we are losing hunter numbers because for a long time, while for the past decade to two this talk centers around loss of hunters, but the number of hunters has been very stable. The problem is we’re getting older and we’re about to the tipping point where the baby boomers are falling off. So here in the next decade, we’re going to really have a drop in hunter numbers. So we’ve been preparing for this by trying to identify what the problem is and how to get more people in the fold. Even though hunter numbers were pretty stable, well now we’re starting to see the first steps of that decline, and we know, you know, it’s not just to gradual, it’s we’re about to a cliff, you know, and we’re taking those first few steps. We’re getting really really close to the edge. So that’s pretty concerning to me.

00:22:48
Speaker 2: See, you know, when I was looking at that, a specific subsection of the data was particularly surprising me, which was they they mentioned they gave you a total number of hunters, but then they told you the percentage of those that identify as deer hunters. And it wasn’t just that total numbers were declining, it was actually that the percentage of those hunters that deer hunt was declining too. So what that tells me is why is deer hunting participation declining faster or declining at a greater rate than just hunting in general. What’s that about? I started wondering, have you guys given that any thought? Why is it that in twenty twenty one, for example, seventy eight percent of reported hunters pursued deer, but now as of twenty four percent, that’s down to only sixty five percent of hunters identify as hunting deer. Why is it that deer hunting participation specifically is declining within the broader hunting community.

00:23:50
Speaker 3: I don’t know the exact answer to that. I do have assumptions, though, I do think that that is related to the average age of hunters and more older hunters that now are you know, there’s still small game hunting something. Maybe they’re score hunting, or they’re walking behind some beagles or whatever. Get out of times, you know, when it’s a lot easier to be out, there’s less you know, cold, there’s no snow. I do think that that is having an impact on that mark. We don’t have data to just show that, but I’m pretty confident that it is firmly related just to the average age of hunters today and as it gets older, you know, that plays directly into it and also there is probably a decade ago. I used to have a slide that I used when I gave talks to kind of set up to talk of the importance of deer, and at that time showed the map of the US or the eastern two thirds of the US Rocky Mountains east those thirty seven states, deer were the number one species hunted and thirty six of the thirty seven, the only one that had anything else hunting more than deer was South Dakota. And so just because you know, the insanely good bird populations area Uplandberg and it was like a long I wasn’t even close with all those other states. But we’re starting to see erosion in that today too. And that’s exactly what you were just alluding to, where there’s not as many people. So you know, if I make another map like that, you know here in a few years, it’s probably going to be more than just South Dakota where where hunters are hunting something besides here, or at least there’s the opportunity for that, you know, And that was wouldn’t have even been considered a decade ago. It’s like, you know, deer, we’re so far and away the most important thing above everything else outside of Spencer’s home state, I guess. But anyway, that is starting to look a little different today, and that’s and that’s very concerned.

00:25:37
Speaker 2: Well, And I also wonder if it might have something to do with the disproportionately challenging aspect today of deer hunting access in particular. Right, Like, you can still go out on any piece of public land and probably shoot squirrels, but there’s a lot of folks that might say trying to kill a deer on public land these is getting to be a tougher experience, or maybe it’s you know, with everybody used to have free permission everywhere to deer hunt on private land, on their neighbors and everyone. But nowadays more and more land is being bought for one or two hunters, more and more land is being leased, and so deer hunting specifically seems like the access challenge is unique there a little bit. I’m curious that that could be having some of this impact as well. Some people were like, Yeah, I used to deer hunt when it was easy to get places to do it. Now if I want a deer hunt, it’s going to cost me a bunch of money. Or I’ve got to become a ninja on public land and I don’t love it that much. That’s that’s purely anecdotal, you know, spitball in there. But I wonder if there’s something there too.

00:26:38
Speaker 3: There absolutely could be, And you’re right, it’s it’s more difficult to get deer hunting access than anything else across most of the country. You know, the folks in Arkansas. That’s probably not true with regard to ducks in some places, but for the most part, you’re right. And I know people even wry Am they know deer hunting is very, very, you know, serious, and there’s Pennsylvania’s more deer hunters per square with anybody, and growing up here you could get permission anywhere. That’s certainly not the case anymore. You have a hard time, you know, because every acre of land is hunted for deer. But when season’s over, you can you can kyo hunt on just about any place here you are. You can late season small game hunt on a lot of places. You’re right. You can still get access to do a lot of other things after deer season’s over. But yeah, but it’s hard to get permission to deer hunt a lot of places so you probably you probably correct with that.

00:27:33
Speaker 2: So kind of along somewhat similar lines. If we’re looking at popular boogeymen within the hunting world, access is one of them, of course, but another one is the impact that crossbows might have on increasing archery participation, possible impacts on deer populations. There’s a lot of I mean, for years and years and years people have liked to talk about this. They still like to talk about this, and so we’re still going to address it every once in a while. You guys do a breakdown by weapon, you explore this a little bit, and I’m just curious when it comes to crossbow participation and possible impacts, have you ever seen have we ever seen any kind of notable change in harvest structure or harvest percentage during archery versus gun season or anything like that when a state has brought crossboards on board.

00:28:27
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I’ll preface this by saying, I am a die hard bowhunter. I spend more time hunting bow bow in my hand than anything else. Once both season is over, I’m glad to pick up my rifle and keep going. But bow hunting is my thing. My kids both started with a crossbow and I am totally fine sharing the woods with people using a crossbow. I think it’s a great tool to get new hunters in. I think it’s a great tool to have senior hunters, you know, be able to still hunt. So I’m not against crossbows. However, I know a lot of people, friends and colleagues are. While you know, I’ve had this discussion lots of times. We have monetists for a long time, and that’s you know, the percentage of the deer take that’s harvested by bows, rifles, muszlaws, et cetera. Fifteen years ago, the percentage total deer harvest that was taken by bows was fifteen percent. Today that’s about twenty five percent, So that’s a jump. However, that percentage taken by bows or crossbowst has stayed very similar for the past five to ten years. You know, basically that fifteen years ago, I say that why there was jumpers. That’s when a bunch of states were starting to legalize crossbows for all hunters during archery season. So because there was more opportunity, you saw a lot hot more deer taken with a boat. However, that number has been very constant now for a while at about twenty five percent, so firearms are still taken, you know, the vast majority of about two thirds of the annual deer harvest. And what states see is some states can break their harvest down vertical bow and cross boat. Some states can’t. They just know it was shot during archery season. So we don’t have real fine scale data across the white tails range of this, but we do know the percentage of deer that are taken by bows, whether it’s a bow or a crossbow. And even though it has increased mark, what we see now is it has absolutely stabilized. You know, we’re still begging hunters to shoot more deer in most places, and it hasn’t really moved the needle with with hunter numbers like many thought it would by yeah, allow crossblinds, you’re going to add all these hunters. It really hasn’t. So what it’s done and my home state is a perfect example of this. There’s more deer being shot with a crossbow today, you know, than a decade or fifteen years ago, but the total deer harvest has an increase. So it’s essentially people that used to shoot that one deer with a rifle in December now shoot it with a crossbow, like in October. So what it’s done is it’s widened the range of when most deer are shot, which actually helps deers. It’s allowing people to shoot them earlier in the year when it’s a lot nicer to be in the woods. So while there are hardcore bone hunters who are very upset about the crossbow end and feel the competition during bow season, maybe for specific buch or whatever, the reality of it is, it hasn’t increased deer harvest at all, and it hasn’t negatively impacted deer harvest at all. It’s just moving a lot of it earlier in the year and put more people in the woods during archery season and fewer people in the woods during firearm season in many places. So you know, it’s probably helped us maintain deer hunter numbers longer than if we didn’t have them, you know, because you know, it’s a lot easier to be out in September or October, particularly for brand new hunters or earlder hunters. But as far as killing extra deer, it hasn’t done that at all. So it hasn’t negatively impacted deer herds. And we started this by saying we had the best age structure we’ve ever had for bucks, so it hasn’t hurt buck age structure. So the real beef today is just people upset that there’s others in the woods at a certain time earlier in the archery season with them. That’s so it’s more of a social problem then there’s certainly no biological problem at all with crossboats.

00:32:15
Speaker 4: Event.

00:32:16
Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to I want to stay on this line of topic just a little bit further. So we’re going to step away from the report for a moment because you guys don’t address this in the report, but I wanted to get your take on this, and I know the National Deer Association has spent some time thinking about this, and that being continuing down this line of technology and how we hunt and the tools we use to hunt. An increasingly popular tool in the hunting world are drones, whether that be simple camera drones or now even thermal imaging drones that can actually allow you to see the heat signature of deer and very very quickly identify all the deer in an area and zoom in right on them like like a CIA satellite image. And so I know the NDA has spent a little bit of time thinking about that and put out a position statement on that. Can you speak at all about how your organization is thinking about how drones are being used today, how they might be used in the future, and where that fine line of fair chase might lie with this technology, and you know, the ways that it’s all changing so quickly.

00:33:24
Speaker 3: Sure, h man, it is that the technology that’s involved with that is insane. You know, it wasn’t that long ago we had these little drones that, yeah, you could go up you know, one hundred feet and take a picture of your house, and then oh, now we can do video, and you know, this is all the way up to drones today with thermal imagers, drones today that are carrying herbicide, drones today that are carrying seeds and they’re seeding plots with them. Drones today that are carrying you know, stuff that you can use for a prescribed fire. They’re starting you know fires with these. So the technology has greatly expanded and the technology has greatly outgrown what we have for for laws in many states with them. And I’ll say this, you know, as an organization, the National Deer Association, you know, we we fight for hunters rights. You know, we’re hunters. We understand, you know, why people want to hunt and want to pursue deer. So like, we want to support everything possible to allow hunters, you know, to maximize time and field, to maximize efficiency and fun and all that. However, we’re first and foremost, you know, we have to protect the resource. So we look at any issue like this very carefully and say, hey, let’s make sure we stay within fair chase rules. Let’s make sure we’re not crossing an ethical boundary. So from from a drone end, we’ll start, you know, like with some of the uses for them. We think it’s awesome that outside of a hunting season you can use them to better understand the landscape to then go in and enhance habitat, you know, to make that habitat better for d er and other wildlife. I think it’s great then to be able to use those to be able to figure out, hey, this is where I should set a stand. Well, this is the best way to access this stand. Those are all great uses. From a recovery end, we think hunters should do everything possible to recover every single animal that’s been hit, you know, with a bow or with an arrow or you know, or a bullet. However, with drones, there is a real opportunity to cross that ethical line to either find game illegally to hunt them, to find deer that maybe why you’re trying to look for one that you’ve you’ve hit. Ooh, there’s actually a bigger one over here or more over here. And even outside the season, there is a tremendous opportunity to harass wildlife with the drones. And this is especially true in the Midwest and other open areas more difficult, you know, in the heavily forested regions. But there’s a real concern and I’ve seen it, and I’m sure you’ve seen it too. I’ve seen people videos, you know, people harassing you know, deer in a in a swatheing field during the summer, you know, or in a hayfield. So our take on it is, Hey, we want to be very genuine with how we approach this and want to give hunters every advance while staying within those ethical boundaries and making sure that we don’t even take a half a step across that line from an ethical standpoint. And states are really wrangling with this trend because it’s hard to capture this in because the technology moves so fast. By the time the states get laws or whatever to take care of what’s happened now or the issue they had last year, you know, drones are ten steps ahead of that. There’s very few other things we talk about there like that. When trail cameras came out, this was one of the single biggest things that hunters or landos now had to survey deer herds and get a feel and people say, man, this is way across the ethical boundary. Well, today, we’ve had them for a long time and people don’t even look at it that way anymore. The drone is the new thing with that and that has the ability to go even farther, you know, on the unethical side. So we look at it very closely. We want folks to be able to use them, but you know, absolutely not from a harassment end or anything that crosses the line of fair chase, because you know that that is the line in the sand that all hunters have to abide by, and if we want to continue hunting, that’s what we need to go bye bye. For all of the non hunting public that allows us to hunt, they want to make sure we’re stopping at that line as well.

00:37:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that’s a great point. I think we oftentimes forget that we get to deer hunt as a privilege within this country, right, and that could be taken away if the majority no longer supported that opportunity. So not only is it important to be following fairchase, you know, principles for our own selves and the sake of the activity, but also, like very practically, there’s like long term hunter opportunity and rights ramifications to this stuff too. So even if you know you personally think the line should be here and not here, let’s also think about how the rest of the world might look at these things and how that could influence our opportunity to do what we love. So I want to kind of circle back a little bit to some things in the report and a little bit of this, you know, I guess broader sort of policy slash state program type topics. Something I know you guys have been spending a lot of time on at the NDA you talk about here in the report is getting a better understanding of where there are donation programs for deer meat, where there are deer processors, so that if people need to get that meat taken care of, they have that possibility to them to all of these kinds of support structures that enable appropriate harvest levels. Right, can you give us an update on where that stands. What do you guys have found what you’re working on on that front?

00:38:46
Speaker 3: Sure, And you know, we talked a little earlier about the need to shoot more analysts deer. What you just asked about is kind of a continuation of that because we recognize the need for that. But we don’t just want to say, yep, go shoot more. We want to prove I have real solutions for hunters. Let’s figure out why they’re not shooting more, and then let’s remove some of those barriers, you know, and then enable them to be easier or you know, to make decisions to shoot more. This Venison processor map and donations place perfectly into this. I already said about forty percent of our hunters are going to shoot a single deer this year, that’s it, and only about eighteen percent are going to shoot more than one. This is not because they don’t have the opportunity to go afield. This is not because we don’t have abundant deer on the landscape, and it’s not because they don’t have tags. Almost every hundred goes the field, you know, with multiple buck tags and multiple inless tags. It’s selectivity, it’s making that decision. So part of that is some people just don’t need that much deer. They’re gonna eat one deer and that’s it. My family, we put you know, five to seven deer in our freezer every year and then give some more away to needy families because we eat that much. I recognize not everybody does. However, there’s a lot of people that have the choice during the year to shoot a dough that choose not to because they don’t need another one or don’t want another one. Well, there’s two things that want. Hey, maybe we can convince them to shoot that deer if they had an outlet for that. Venison donation programs are a perfect outlet. But unfortunately, there’s a lot of hunters that just are not aware of those opportunities today to get food into homes that need it. Today, in this great country of ours, it’s insane that one in seven households are food insecure. So think of that. All the kids that go to school with your kids, you know, one out of every sect they don’t have enough protein at home, but yet we have too many deer on the landscape in many places. So we can connect hunters, let them know, hey, there are needy families. Here is a place you can take this deer to be processed. Because unfortunately, mark there’s way fewer venics and processors today than there have been in the past. They go out of business. They just aren’t taking as many through COVID, through this, that disease, whatever. There’s a lot that have closed their shops. So what we did is we worked with every single state wildlife agency and their venison donation programs to put a national map together. You can go on our website. There’s an interactive map, find your state and it shows every single venison processor there. So hunter now can locate, hey, who is closest to me. We identify which ones participate in the state’s venison donation programs. You can go drop it off there, you go, doesn’t cost you anything, and the meat is going to a needy family. That’s perfect. So we are making raising this awareness to hunters, talking about the need to do it. Here’s they are an outlet for it. And unfortunately, every one of those state donation programs they run out of money during the year. You know, they are all the runoff donations and there’s some state funding, but most part donations. However, we also know that there are t FAB dollars that can be used for those t FAB is a federal program that’s the Emergency Food Assistance Program. A lot of people have heard of that. Very few people know that those dollars can go to venison donation programs through the state. We currently work with this through the state of Massachusetts right now on their mass Wildlife venison donation programs. So our director of Policy is working with many state wilife agencies to connect those dots. Because now we provide a national map hunters, here’s where you can find a processor. Here are the ones that it’s free to you that goes to a venison donation program, and here are the t FAB dollars to mean that that state has way more money to pay those processors to increase numbers of deer for those programs. And by doing so, this reduces the barrier for hunters, makes it very simple for them, makes it free for them, and then they get to you to solve a problem and help communities in need. And the best part is we harvest deer the need to be harvested, so deer herds are healthier, habitats are healthier, people get fed.

00:42:51
Speaker 4: And who are the champion Hunters? Hunters are the champions, are the ones that make this whole thing work. So it’s super cool that once we connect all these parts, this is what happens. So this is what we are right in the middle of all of this. And you are questioning about, you know, the the venison map. We don’t want to just say hunters, go shoot more deer, say yes, we want you to.

00:43:12
Speaker 3: Here’s why. And man, we’re gonna rolled this out and made it as easy as possible for you to do this. Be the champion in your society.

00:43:20
Speaker 2: That’s incredible. Just you know, there’s a win win, and then there’s things like this where it’s like a win win win win win. There’s so many across the board there, so it’s hard to argue with that. And if somebody is listening and they’d like to see that map, I just pulled it up. If you go to Deer Association dot com and then underneath the you know, the menu there, you’ll see NBA programs selected that and then there’s a drop down and you’ll see the National Deer Processor Map. Very easy to get to, terrific program. Really good. Glad you guys are working on that. You mentioned TFAB dollars. Is that program part of the you know, associated with the farm bill at all?

00:43:54
Speaker 3: It is? Yep, it absolutely is. And so many states were away that Yes they can use that for you know, food assistants and that, but they weren’t aware of the connection to the venison donation part. So, uh, there’s a lot of education there at the policy level, you know, to to allow folks, you know, the understanding of how to incorporate those dollars. So, yep, Farm Program Bill super important. Let me say this mark before we leave the map part. That is an interactive map. So at any point if somebody wants, you know, knows of a processor to be added, just reach out to us and we’ll get them added on there. I mean, we want to have as complete of the map as possible. If we understand there’s a lot of mom and pop processing you know that goes on, we can get any of that on here. Anything to help hunters, you know, connect and find a processor we want to do. So uh, yeah, we’ll update that you know, at a moment’s notice, So anybody can hit let us know where processor is that we don’t have, and we’d love to get them at it.

00:44:53
Speaker 2: That’s great. Uh So I was gonna ask related to the farm bell then, Yeah, we’ve talked about the farm bill here on the podcast, you know, every couple of years for quite a while now, and for the last few years it has been pushed. It has you know, been needing reauthorization for several years now, continues to be pushed and pushed and pushed. I’m curious if you have any update on on where things stand with the farm bill these days and the and the conservation program specifically tied to that, any updates that that deer hunters should know about.

00:45:26
Speaker 3: I have some updates, and none of it’s good for us. And this is this comes from our director policy and a and a federal policy person that we work with that updated me and our staff on this here recently and essentially just with what’s going on in the world today and where we are with all the other big issues. Well they said, is you know, basically the can is still just being kicked down the road with reauthorization for farm bill. So I don’t know the ins and outs of it. I know they’re the ones that work on this on a daily basis, so uh, that’s what they shared with me. So now, that’s so not good news for sportsmen and women by any means, but apparently that is that is the reality of where we are today.

00:46:07
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I hate to do this then, because I’m going to continue to ask you about not good news things. The next the next topic that we have to address and we have to talk about is where things stand on the disease front, which I think is every deer hunter’s least favorite topic, but it is also an important one. So, Kip, can you get us the latest on what you guys saw when you reported this most recent year on trends with CWD and EHD, which which tend to be the two most high profile disease issues in the country. And then I’ve got some more specific CWD questions, but I guess high level, what were the trends that we saw in those two fronts.

00:46:50
Speaker 3: Let’s start with with hemorrhagic disease. There were there were twenty seven states that confirmed the disease last year, which was a couple more than the year before. Twenty four was considered a lower moderate year for it last year most places, even though there was a couple more states, most places that were the gain was low to moderate severity. However, there were some places that were absolutely hammered with it, the Ohio River Valley being being you know that that was number one place, So you know they’re in southeast Ohio and across the line into West Virginia. Those year got just absolutely slammed. So the thing with him rragic disease that that I that I tell deer hunters to I think we really need to watch is one. You know, this used to be considered a disease of southeastern deer. You know, it wasn’t everywhere. That’s not the case anymore, man. This thing is all across the US and up into Canada. You know, we see it every year in my home state of Pennsylvania now, and you know that. I mean in the past that just never happened, you know. But with a warmer climate, you know, the vector which are the midges, they’re moving way farther north, becoming much more common. And we’re also seeing new strains of hemorrhagic disease. So even the deer in the southeast, you know that typically would get exposed to it, you know, but the wouldn’t die. And this is a big thing with Hemorrhaget’s not all deer die from it in the southeast because they’re exposed every year, you know, Yeah, a few deer die here that well, there’s these new strains. I mean, deer in the southeast in many cases are just as naive to those strains as our northern deer are. So we’re seeing some bigger die offs in places in the south as well. So long term, it looks like hemorrhagic disease will continue to grow and expand, largely because of our current climate. Fortunately, it’s not devastating to most deer herds. Some deer that get it don’t die. Those that do tend to die very quickly, so they’re not giving it to other deer. They can’t do that, so that is a good thing. So it’s an increasing concern. And may I feel for people that want to it’s bad where you are, because I get it. I mean, it’s easy for me to say, yeah, it wasn’t that bad of a year. You know, none of the deer on the farm and I hunt died. You know, so I sympathize with with people who haven’t. So it’s a big deal for sure. The other half of that is a CWD, and this continues to be the single largest threat to the future of our deer herbs. And that’s not just me saying that mark or NDA. The vast majority of wildlife professionals believe that’s the single largest threat. The reason for that is, unlike hemorrhagic disease, CWD is fatal to one hundred percent of deer. Every deer that gets it’s going to die. Also different from hemorrhagic disease. If a deer has CWD, it can infect other deer that it comes in contact with, and it can infect other deer that it doesn’t come in contact with, just by things that it leaves in the environment like urine, feces, saliva, other deer that come in contact with that, or it remains after it dies. So it’s just so much more contagious. That’s the big thing with CWD. It’s in thirty six states now, Georgia being the most recent, so you know, it continues to expand. But what I want to tell people is in uh, you know, we’re in battles of this all the time. People say, well, hamorrhagic disease is worse, And what I tell people is that’s not true. And I think that we missed the point by saying, well CWD is worse, or hemorrhagic disease is worse. So I tell people is they’re both bad. They’re both really bad. It’s not a one or it’s both. We need to work on both. We attack those two diseases very differently, but I think people like to fight over one or the other and they just lose sight of the big picture. The big picture is they are both really really bad diseases for deer. They both negatively impact the future of our hunting. So as sportsmen and women, we need to engage with our state wilife agencies and do everything we can to battle those to limit, you know, spread of both of those diseases. And that’s really the reality of where we are today. When when our kids there were different things that were the biggest threats we had to deal with. Today it’s disease, and both of those diseases are very bad and getting worse.

00:51:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, it’s just it’s so tricky to see and feel and understand the ramifications of one of them compared to the other. And I feel like that just continuously leads to conspiracy and folks, you know, being in denial. You know, there was just somebody on social media the other day. He has a large platform, and I ran across this video and he said something like, you know, do this thought experiment with me. Think about you know, if if you didn’t have the media, and if the media told you nothing about EHD, and all you had to go from was your personal lived experience and those in your family and your community, would you know that EHD existed and then it might impact you. And so just think about that. And it’s like, okay, and now take a look at CWD. If the media wasn’t continuously preaching to you about this and all these so called experts weren’t preaching about it, would you have any idea that CWD is impacting something in your life and in your community? Could you see it and feel it? Yeah, just think about that. And the point he was getting at is that he was claiming that the media is feeding you this thing, these so called experts are feeding you this thing. But no one’s actually experienced any downsides of CWD. But we’ve all experienced some kind of real downside to EHD. Because it’s immedia, it can be very concentrated and noticeable. We’re all of a sudden, a bunch of deer die in a week, and it’s like obvious. With CWD, it’s much much harder to see that firsthand and to recognize that firsthand. Of course, that doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing, and that doesn’t mean it’s not going to have very real long term implications. But for the average everyday person, it’s a harder, you know, two series of dots to connect the lines between what do you say to somebody who hears that and thought to themselves like, oh yeah, I don’t know. This is hard to wrap my head around. This is this has been going on, add no ousen for you for twenty years. I know, I know you’re sick of having to make this case, but bear with me and do it one more time.

00:53:00
Speaker 3: You know. And I’m fine to this because you’re right because it is such a big issue and there’s a lot of hunters that that wonder that exact same thing. I liken the two diseases to hemorrhagic disease. Incubation period is only five to nine days, So if it is gonna die, it’s gonna die. You know, within five to nine days we see them. They all congregate the water, so it’s very simple to find them. I liken that too. That’s the hornet’s nest in that bush in your front yard. If you walk out and you kick that hornet’s nest, there is an immediate reaction. You’re gonna You can see it, and you know that’s heemorrhagic disease. CWD is very different. Incubation is eighteen to twenty four months, so way lower. CWD is like the termite under your house. You might see that hornet’s nest in your front yard every day. You don’t see the termites under your house, but every day they weaken the foundation, and when you do figure it out, in many cases it’s too late to save the house. That’s the CWD in deer because it goes so slowly, but it just keeps wearing away the foundation of that deer herd. And for the people to say, well, there’s no declines in are in wildlife because of CWD, that’s not true. We have absolute published declines and out populations. In Wyoming. We have population declines and mule deer populations in the west now and in white tails in northwest Nebraska, we have population declines specifically due to CWD. University of Georgia researchers finished this project up about a year ago. They have three different study sites in Arkansas in the area that they first found the disease, and they have monitored all kinds of stuff with that. The long and short of it is those three study sites deer herds today. So think about the deer per square mile, or you hunt how many deer per square mile. Most hunters don’t want to hunt if there’s less than twenty to thirty deer per square mile, and they’re not happy unless there’s deer per square mile there are those populations today have between one and five deer per square mile. That’s it, and it’s because of CWD. They started way higher than that, and that’s how far. Look when they found CWD in that area, Oh it’s brand new. Well now, it had been there a while and they now believe that it probably was there for twenty years before they found it, so it had a twenty year head start to just that’s why the prevalence rates there are so high. In deerers, and this is exactly what we’re seeing there.

00:55:34
Speaker 4: Now.

00:55:34
Speaker 3: Do you want to go go hunt where there’s five deer per square mile? You know I have hunted in those situations, and I know you probably have as well. You don’t see many deer. You certainly don’t see if any where there’s one one deer per square mile, you’re like on averagers, one deer for every six hundred and forty acres. This is because of CWD. And what shows that this is the first example, you know, in a place in the US where we have a bunch of deer and a lot of deer owners, you know, Wisconsin or somebody is going to be next. I mean, this is the thing we’re going to see grow. So just like those termites under your house, you don’t see them today, you know, but twenty years down the road, you’re like, oh, man, we should have done something about this. That that’s the big difference between CWD and hamorrhagic disease. And so that’s why we fight so hard for that.

00:56:21
Speaker 2: So for years now, in these discussions, the next question is always well, what can we do or what what what happens next? And for a long time the answer has been well, follow your state’s best guidelines to slow the spread as much as possible, because if you don’t have it, you don’t want it. So let’s follow all the best practices, and then let’s advocate for, you know, more funding for research. Let’s support you know, hopefully finding solutions because right now we don’t have a great solution, so we need to fund studies and research and different projects that might get us to some kind of better solution. In your report, you have a long list of different studies results coming out when it comes to CWD research and new findings. Is there anything from that list that stands out to as worth you know, the general public knowing a little bit more about well.

00:57:11
Speaker 3: I think that we know more today than ever before about it, which is good. There’s a lot of research going on about it, which is good. There’s multiple studies out there looking at developing a vaccine for it, which is great because that’s the first step, you know, and having that, you know, it takes a while. There’s a bunch of trials, So the fact that there’s not just one but multiple people trying to develop that, I think is very positive and that’s all the more incentive for me anyway to continue fighting to limit spread so that once we do find a vaccine, you know, we can apply it to a larger number of deer, you know, or at least a larger percentage of those deer more quickly. So I tell people every single hunter can get engaged. Keep hunting. First of all, every time you shoot a deer that has the disease, hey, you’ve helped the battle, removed a positive animal for the landscape. That is good. Now it can’t infect any others. So keep hunting. Provide samples to our agencies so we know where the disease is and the prevalence rate. You know, there’s stuff that has hunters we can do every single day, and I’m more encouraged with the amount of research for that than in the past. We finally do have some success stories, you know, with regard to that, so you know we’re on the right path. We just need time, and that’s why it’s important for every deer hunter to engage do what they can, you know, with this fight, because man, it’s a fight worth fighting for sure. If there ever was a fight worth fighting in the deer world, this is one.

00:58:38
Speaker 2: So all that said, Kip, how do you feel about the fact that some states are seemingly pulling back on their CWD management efforts. You know, Missouri just announced, you know, end of last year or beginning of this year, that they are going to stop their targeted removal program. States like my home state of Michigan are in real discussions about bringing BATA back. And I know that’s you know, just a couple example of things happening all across the state. What’s your what’s your take on that trend?

00:59:08
Speaker 3: Man, that’s not headed the right way, and I feel so bad, particularly for Missouri. There is very clear the single best thing we can do to remove the most CWD positive deer from the landscape while simultaneously having the minimum negative impact to hunters is targeted removal. Because you know where a CWD positive is, you are guaranteed there’s other positive deer around it. So the strategical removal of those sharpshooting programs does more for removing positive deer from the landscape than anything else. And then you’re removing the least number of deer from a hunting standpoint, so it hurts hunters the least. It actually helps hunters the most. You know, they notice impacts the least. Unfortunately, though, public outcry around sharp shooting programs goes crazy and people lose their minds with you know, they’re killing all the deer and this is bad, and and some celebrities get involved and just make it worse. Missouri is the shining star example. No state has done a better job of keeping prevalence rates as low as they have for as long as they have as the state of Missouri. The Missouri Department of Conservation has done a fantastic job. Just past year and a half, public outcry, mostly through social media campaigns, has been so bad that the agency just can’t withstand it anymore. And I don’t mean that they’re given up. I mean from political there’s political motivations now, so you can’t just say, well, yeah, they should just continue to fight when all of those people are so upset and they’re going to the legislators, that negatively impacts other things that MDC can do. So I understand why Missouri’s going that route. I think that’s a real loss for the future of CWD management and a loss of hunters. Four hunters in Missouri moving away from those sharpshooting programs because there’s nothing else that works that good every moving positive CWD positive deer from the landscape.

01:01:01
Speaker 2: What about the baiting trend, I feel like that’s popping up again more and more places. I know you guys have a nuanced position on baiting at the NDA, can you can you give us some thoughts there.

01:01:13
Speaker 3: Sure, it’s very clear that there’s nothing that spreads disease faster than when deer are congregated and they’re swapping spit and urine in saliva, and that happens more a bait sites than anywhere else. The science is very very clear on that. We don’t talk about the ethical part, whether you should use bait from a hunting end or not, I don’t care about that, But from a science end, the biology is very clear that if you have a disease, that’s where it’s going to spread first and spread fastest. So baiting is not good in disease zones. And we absolutely oppose baiting in any disease zones because we don’t want deer you know, trading spit and urine and feces and all that way better. And I’m had that bait, So those deer stays spread out, you know, they’re not coming into contact with each other as much. And it’s not just CWD. There’s lots of research that shows that mange is greatly the spread of it is greatly increased at bait sites. Brucellosis greatly increased there, tuberculosis of course here you had that in Michigan, CWD it also, I mean, it was all kinds of diseases and ailments that are bad for deer. That spread is greatly increased at bait sites. So because of that, we don’t think that you should be able to bait anywhere where there’s a disease concern. Baiting is really culturally tied though, and people who grew up baiting, you know, man, they don’t want to hunt without it. To the point where I was at a class that we were teaching last fall. We had a guy came in and was talking to me about I’m like, how is your season? Yeah? About so he’s going on and on about excited to hunt. He goes, well, yeah, I got off to my stand it was like peak rud or whatever, and got to it. And this was in the state where baiting was legal. And he walked over to his feeder, he said, and it was empty, there was nothing in it. He goes wasted that day, so I went home. There was a zero percent chance to kill a deer if there wasn’t bait. So the fact he’s in the woods, but it’s just I’m not picking on him. This is how he was brought up hunting, so to his mind, that’s the only way to hunt. So, you know, I get it. Baiting is really ingrained in places where you know that’s up. So it’s a big issue. And that’s why it’s so hard to emotional tie. And the cultural tie is so strong that even as dangerous as disease is in many cases, you know, that can’t even override how tightly people are tied to that. So I get that, you know, I understand that part of it, and so it’s on us as managers to be able to really show hey, we understand that. But from a disease end, here’s why we really need you to not use bait.

01:03:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, kit, I want to zoom out, zoom out and away from baiting, CWD all these different things. Potentially Imagine I am a deer hunter listening to this podcast right now. I’m on the other side of the of the airwaves. I’m in my car, I’m driving to work, or driving to go for a hike, to go look for sheds, or do some work on the property, or scout some public land. And I’m listening to this podcast because I love deer hunting, and I want to make sure that I can keep deer hunting and have a quality experience into the future. And I want to make sure that my kids can do this kind of stuff. And so I am a deer hunter who cares about the future, and I want to be a part of the solutions that will lead us to a better future for deer and deer hunting. If I’m that kind of person, what are two tangible, actionable things that I can do over the next twelve months to help perpetuate that better future for deer and deer hunting. Two tangible examples.

01:04:49
Speaker 3: Two tangible things. One, I would say, become an NBA member. You can do so for free, because then we can keep you updated on all this important stuff that’s going on. We can share whatever information you want, how to enhance habitat, how to introduce new hunters, how to be involved in policy, whatever it is that will keep you engaged in the game to know, hey, here’s really what’s going on. That’s number one and number two. Go hunting this year and shoot an handle this deer. That will be do so much for our sport. And you’re doing your part for deer eat that you can get some of it away to friends or family, whatever you want. But those two things will keep you engaged and will be extremely I allow you to be a very productive hunter, to be doing something very good for the future of our dear hurd.

01:05:37
Speaker 2: That’s not too much to ask, Kip. I think that’s a very reasonable ask. I’m on boards. I’m here for it, Kip. I appreciate everything you do and that the National Deer Association does. They can become a member at dear Association dot com. Correct, that’s correct, that’s correct, excellent. Well, any final words be a Kip or should we wrap this one up?

01:05:58
Speaker 3: I think we’re at a good spot there. So it’s great to see you Mark as always, and thank you for everything you do for our wild deer resource and for wild places. Glad to be here today and talk with you.

01:06:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, always a pleasure, Kip, Thanks so much. Let’s do it again next year. Sounds good, all right, and that’s going to do it for us today. Thank you for being here. Thanks for being a part of this chat today with Kip Adams. I hope you learned a lot. Be sure to check out the twenty twenty six Dear Report for yourself. If you’d like some more information along these lines, you can find that at the Dear Association dot com website. And until next time, thanks for being here and stay wired to hunt.